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#1 2010-01-27 00:26:08

VerbalEssence
Member
Registered: 2010-01-26
Posts: 3

A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Possibly for the wiki
I haven't really done a thorough read-through of the wiki that's been established, but I'll drop my 2 cents.  Ironically, I was putting together this argument during a Women's Studies lecture (I know, right?) and actually got the ideas from said lecture.  In any case, some of these arguments are pretty out there and abstract and contain potential drawbacks, either way I felt they were worthy of some consideration.
I've semi-gone over these arguments in the IRC chat and refined them a bit but overall these are just to facilitate additional possibilities to consider and have not truly been fine-tuned and extensively reviewed.  Overall, these arguments intend to make it clear that EN is blowing things out of proportion, the bishoujo game industry is nowhere NEAR as influential as some of the other industries out there.

First off, to call the rape game genre "sick" is objective.  Plenty of people enjoy scat and various other "sick" fetishes, I fail to see any concerns being raised about them.

The subject of rape is not trivialized in any way in a rape game, at least not the ones that I have seen.
-There is no humor in the matter and hence players are not "desensitized" to the rape being committed.
-The aftermath of the player's actions in-game is not watered-down in a rape game (at least to the best of my knowledge).
-In essence, all of this means that the scenarios in a rape game are serious from start to finish.

The in-game victim is not made an "object", the victim remains a responsive, living, breathing human
-There is little to no room for detachment on the player's part
-Players are made aware that said "victim" has some form of living existence (albeit abstract in this case), and hence are aware that they are not committing acts on a non-responsive dummy, which once again prevents desensitization and detachment.

Limited Audience/ Small Market
-First off adult/bishoujo games are only sold retail in Japan
-On top of that, they are ADULT games, which cuts the audience size down even further
-On top of BOTH of those points, is that the rape game genre is a niche market in itself, which cuts the audience size down yet again.
-Hence, we're looking at an extremely small population of MATURE gamers.
-Being MATURE means that you're cognitively developed and so the customers that do end up purchasing said games KNOW EXACTLY what they are getting themselves into, and should by standard be smart enough to discern reality from fantasy.
-Being a relatively small market with a limited clientele, I would assume that adult games are not a multi-billion dollar industry (can someone do some research and come up with an exact figure?)

Now compare ALL of this to Western Mainstream Marketing (figures and facts taken from Still Killing Us Softly)
First and foremost, advertising is a 130 billion dollar a year industry (it should be even more now, since that figure is outdated)

Advertising not only strongly emphasizes the idea that a woman's sole value is in sex and beauty but also treats them as objects, essentially they are not human and are free to be treated as we wish.  Additionally some ads even advocate harassment and physical violence against women.
-There are essentially ads where women's bodies are portrayed as beer bottles, scissors, etc.
-On top of this are ads for make-up where the make-up is specially applied to resemble the appearance of bruises, thus trivializing and parodying physical violence against women.  (If this doesn't advocate and desensitize violence against women, I don't know what does.  Rape games give off the idea that rape is OK? Bitch please, educate yourself)
-There are also ads that emphasize a woman's sexual allure while depicting shadowy figures stalking a female in various settings. (As I stated, rape games encourage rape? Bitch please)
-Some ads involve ambiguous and suggestive poses that can be interpreted as either sexual acts or physical violence (essentially rape and/or battering) and are often accompanied by suggestive innuendos.

Advertising targets EVERYONE be it young, old, blind, deaf, whatever.  Not only does it target, it practically forces itself upon viewers.  The average American is exposed to roughly 1,500 ads on a daily basis.
-This would mean that while older more cognitively developed people probably know better, because ads target everyone, young impressionable kids are also to be considered.
-Because ads are so mainstream and omnipresent, we are constantly bombarded with such depictions of women.

So with that said

Comparing bishoujo games to mainstream advertising, Japan's bishoujo industry seems rather insignificant and powerless in terms of influence.  Bishoujo games once again have a non-mainstream following, it is not a big budget mainstream industry, in-game criminal acts are not trivialized or parodied as things are presented as they are in a straightforward manner, there is no deception or subliminal messaging, they have a restricted audience by default (Adults only) and an even more niche audience on top of that (not every adult plays bishoujo games).

Advertising is everywhere, is at least a 130 billion dollar a year industry (hell of a lot bigger than the USA's porn industry which is already bigger than Japan's bishoujo game industry), portrays womens' bodies as inanimate objects, parodies and trivializes issues of violence against women (rape, battering, etc.), easily exposed to everyone including young impressionable children, is practically subliminal porn to some degree, exercises plenty of deception in putting forth persuasive messages, persuades females to treat their bodies like objects of sex and beauty rather than as living organisms.

Last edited by VerbalEssence (2010-01-27 00:27:32)

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#2 2010-01-27 00:46:41

VerbalEssence
Member
Registered: 2010-01-26
Posts: 3

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Another vague/ abstract idea that I forgot to put down.  I should note this argument is once again rather undeveloped and is meant to generate possible routes to explore.
The whole video games influencing minors/people aspect.
First off, bishoujo games are solely for adults and not little kids, so that argument is invalid altogether.

But screw it, we'll take on that approach as well just because we CAN, we're THAT confident that we're in the right.  So let's make use of say......GTA.
In violent games like GTA, victims of the player's in-game violence aren't really focused on.
-What I mean by this is that, said "victims" are uniform in design, personality, etc.  All in all they aren't given as much effort and attention.
-Because of this lack of design, said "victim's" situation in-game is made trivial and insignificant.  In essence the gamer is desensitized to acts of violence because said "victims" are no more than an army of plastic dolls.  The gamer is essentially killing an army of plastic dolls.

Now one might say that said "victims" are just as responsive and as characters in bishoujo and rape games, hence making them more than plastic dolls.  This is rather inaccurate.
In a bishoujo game or a rape game, the NPC characters that you interact with are given a ton of focus.  They have unique personalities, detailed appearances, a variety of scenarios in-game, and a relatively fleshed out background that sometimes develops even further as the game progresses.  What's more, the player usually gets to know and understand said characters on a very 1 on 1 basis.  IN short, they are NOTHING like plastic dolls that bear an insignificant existence.

-Delving into the more gritty details, in a bishoujo game the NPC's situation is made very significant and focused on.  This gives the gamer no room for detachment from the situation.  You're not interacting with an army of 1,000 faceless robots, you're interacting with and focusing your attention on ONE unique and fleshed out character that responds to everyone of the player's actions.

-On top of that, the player to NPC ratio is very limited.  I'm not sure if diffusion of responsibility would be the correct term, but the concept I have in mind here is akin to that.  Because you're focused on ONE unique character maybe 3 or 4 at most, not 1,000 clones, you are very engaged with said character.

Last edited by VerbalEssence (2010-01-27 00:47:35)

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#3 2010-03-02 08:48:06

incal
Active Member
Registered: 2009-11-07
Posts: 18

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

I think all those arguments are pretty good, but since we're all biaised toward Freedom here, seeing the eventual flaws may be hard; they'll have to be shown to people with different opinions and see what kind of (intelligent) counter arguments we get.

Arguments involving video games are easily dismissed simply for being "over-used";
the way you put it is good, but someone with a diverging opinion may say of that effect :
"BECAUSE these games are more realistic and involving
BECAUSE the main subject of the game is sex
it is not acceptable"
and
"video games are evil anyway"

Also, since only adults actively look for paraphilia materials, if this argument was effective Yes to freedom wouldn't have to exist.

The video game genre is still relatively new, any attempt at making it more adult or mature brings controversy (remember Mass Effect).
It was not so in the early years, but then video games were not such a big market...

That makes me think, if a FPS was to depict war in all it's horror, pain and violence, it could transform pretty much anyone playing it into a pacifist.
A rape simulation could in theory make someone about to commit rape THINK about the consequences before hand, and hopefully have a change of mind. What do you think ?

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#4 2010-03-02 12:48:52

Azarius
-Leader-
From: Québec
Registered: 2009-07-08
Posts:

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Very interesting arguments you bring up here, incal. I entirely agree with most. An element you should keep in mind though is that, from a sociological point of view, anything new brings controversy by definition. As for constructive criticism, there is only one point I feel the need to address:

incal wrote:

That makes me think, if a FPS was to depict war in all it's horror, pain and violence, it could transform pretty much anyone playing it into a pacifist

In this line of thought, we might as well say that it could cause post-traumatic stress disorder, and that wouldn't exactly be to our advantage.

This being said, we are currently trying to group together - and answer to - as many counter-arguments to our cause as possible. You might have already read the relevant wiki page: http://core.nctritech.com/ytfwiki/index … gainst_YTF

It would be very appreciated if you could add these arguments of yours to this page...


http://yestofreedom.org/files/az/perso_button_az.png
~ I have no faith in belief. ~

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#5 2010-03-03 07:08:50

incal
Active Member
Registered: 2009-11-07
Posts: 18

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Azarius wrote:

It would be very appreciated if you could add these arguments of yours to this page...

Thanks,
I added "This argument is over-used ", and " Video games encourage violence" under "Rape games encourage rape"; I hope it'll survive public scrutiny.

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#6 2010-03-03 11:29:20

Shuu
Master Coder
Registered: 2009-07-09
Posts: 117

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

I just remembered the "If it wasn't bad, unnatural and abhorrent enough to warrant a ban, you wouldn't need to defend it!!!1"  argument and it's variant "Deep down you know that it's wrong and that you're abnormal, that's why you're trying to justify your deviance!!!11". Probably among the most stupid arguments thinkable, but it nevertheless enjoys mind-boggling popularity amogst activists and "normalfags" alike...

It's so stupid I can't even think of any witty comebacks, other than the usual holocaust or homosexuality analogies... I'll add just the argument to the wiki for the time being.


http://forums.yestofreedom.org/img/sig-buttons/perso_button_shuu.png

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#7 2010-03-14 05:27:34

incal
Active Member
Registered: 2009-11-07
Posts: 18

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Took a bite at the ultimate classic "you're a pedo!"
http://core.nctritech.com/ytfwiki/index … gainst_YTF

I put a lot of though in this, but feel free to butcher it if you think I got anything wrong.

Last edited by incal (2010-03-14 05:29:11)

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#8 2010-03-14 11:37:38

Azarius
-Leader-
From: Québec
Registered: 2009-07-08
Posts:

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Good work, and thank you for working on that wiki page. Everybody in this org including myself automagically became insanely busy this week so we're stagnating a bit. It's refreshing to see something be done.

As for the content, it's overall good but some points are rather fallacious. It would be great if you could find the time to drop by the IRC to discuss further these issues, since I feel that you would benefit from an exhaustive explanation.


http://yestofreedom.org/files/az/perso_button_az.png
~ I have no faith in belief. ~

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#9 2010-03-14 13:32:30

incal
Active Member
Registered: 2009-11-07
Posts: 18

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

J'aurais aimé que tu me dise tout de suite quels points sont fallacieux; ça m'aurais moins gêné que tu enlève le tout .
J'ai un problème avec l'irc, j'essaierais de me débrouiller avec une des alternatives plus tard...

Translation [Azarius]:

I'd have liked you to tell me which points are fallacious right away; it would have been less embarrassing if you had removed all of it.

I have a problem with the IRC, I'll try to cope with the alternatives later...

Last edited by Azarius (2010-03-14 19:55:23)

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#10 2010-03-14 19:46:50

Azarius
-Leader-
From: Québec
Registered: 2009-07-08
Posts:

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Please use PMs if you wish to discuss in French - most members of YtF cannot understand that language^^

I did not remove your additions to the wiki because I felt that it would have been disrespectful to your work. I would rather discuss with you of what should be changed and let you change it. I cannot explain the fallacious points here as this is a public forum.

I hope to see you on the IRC soon...


http://yestofreedom.org/files/az/perso_button_az.png
~ I have no faith in belief. ~

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#11 2010-03-15 01:17:58

incal
Active Member
Registered: 2009-11-07
Posts: 18

Re: A Few Counter-Arguments To Consider?

Sorry about that;
I got carried away.

I edited out some of the reflexions that were not needed myself, but it should be worked on again by someone with another point of view, it's a wiki after all.

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